Watch Adam Meister and Caitlyn Long share some advice
Hello, everyone, this is Adam Meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister welcome to this week in bitcoin oh we got a special one today in September 2018.
Strong hand long-term thinking uncomplicated Bowl and for this show we got to remember control your private key people that is very important but we’re gonna be talking about big organizations that might be controlling your private key one of these days because we’re trying to talk about financialization so we’re gonna talk about ETF.
We’re gonna talk about Africa we’re gonna talk about so much we got an international crew coming to you today farzam as Sahni is coming from Johannesburg, Caitlyn Long is coming from the east coast. Just like I am and Andy Hoffman is in the Mountain Time Zone in Denver kind of near where Caitlin’s from originally.
So welcome to the show everyone I am so pumped to have this all-star international crew here today to talk about Bitcoin and everything you love crypto Caitlin we’re gonna start with you you’ve never been on the show before these other two guys have been on the show in the past.
Welcome and let’s just jump right into it something that is part of your expertise it is financialization Bitcoin Wall Street background you’ve got talk a little bit about that but talk about good financialization versus bad financialization this is something you talked about actually on the trace Mayer show which I mean that was a must listen to everyone’s gotta check out that by the way everyone’s links are linked to below you can check out all of these guests below Caitlyn take it away welcome sure thank you it’s great to be on your show financialization is a word that to me brings negative connotations.
I realize that traces sixth network effect and he and I were talking about that before the backed announcement came out which is the first real move to using physical bitcoins again. I know physical kind of you’ve got to put in quotation marks a financial market term to distinguish between synthetic which is all cash base and physical which is actually settling in the underlying but financialization a lot of financialization is bad.
So you really do have to be very careful to distinguish between the good and the bad type financialization is basically what Wall Street does for a living and Wall Street creates regularly creates as standard operating procedure Moore claims to an asset then there are real assets. That’s financialization and of course, the Austrian school economics folks among us would recognize that as what Mises would have called circulation credit.
And I need to distinguish here good financialization includes the regular one for one backed debt there is absolutely nothing wrong with debt there’s absolutely nothing wrong with wrong with coin lending as long as it’s 100% backed by the real on chain coins when you start to actually have off chain claims to Bitcoin that are sold as if they’re Bitcoin and they’re no longer linked to the to the actual blockchain itself.
That’s when you start to get that circulation credit creeping in that’s the bad type of financialization I called it to leverage based financialization another way to call it as uncovered claims to Bitcoin that are not 100% backed by real Bitcoin there are lots of ways that Wall Street does this it’s very insidious and because of the way the accounting works auditors don’t even catch this either it’s something that builds slowly over time and unfortunately I think it’s probably coming to Bitcoin.
Alright now that’s just stares everyone right there that last line, unfortunately, it’s coming to Bitcoin yeah but how about it you can keep track of it on the blockchain you can require these companies give out a public address you’re saying they’re gonna be able to get away with this somehow nobody’s doing that right look at the products that are already out there involving physical Bitcoin look at GBTC look at ledger X are they disclosing public keys nobody’s doing that.
I think that Nick Bhatia wrote a median post and I get my hats the hats off to him saying if we really want to do this right and you are gonna be commingling Bitcoin in what’s called an omnibus account instead of holding it for individual customers on Wall Street.
You really need to be disclosing those public keys and I’ve been saying that to the regulators to use the blockchain to your advantage you can track this stuff and verify that there are no shenanigans happening behind the scenes because GAAP accounting is not going to pick this up which means.
The auditors are not gonna pick it up either all right now okay so bad financialization it’s coming but let’s good financialization is also coming it’s already here it’s already hit so this is we got a look at both sides now again we people are gonna say all of it it wasn’t meant for the bank’s Bitcoin wasn’t meant for the bank’s.
We can’t stop it it’s a done deal they are coming they’re not the Messiah they’re not the devil either. Because in the end of the day if there is a big custodial hack one day if there is this bad financialization.
I think people will demand that you know the public keys are revealed or are given out you know right I mean from what you’ve seen here I mean you’re involved on a lot of levels on Wall Street.
Here, do people even understand what a public key? And what a private key is? Are they just getting into this for greed well the people on Wall Street are well and then regular users?
It’s there’s a lot of there’s a big learning curve here there’s just a bad look.
I think the early adopters of Bitcoin clearly understand what the difference between a public key and the private key is hats off to Andres Antonopoulos and others who have been saying until.
They’re blue in the face you don’t own your Bitcoin if you don’t control your private keys but Wall Street isn’t built for that Wall Street is not built to handle bearer instruments.
They haven’t handled bearer instruments since you know stock certificates went immobilized and dematerialize those are the word that the lawyers would have used in the 1970s right so now you’ve got not just bearer instruments but digital bearer instruments.
The Wall Street’s gonna have to start managing when it’s stealing with physical bitcoins big distinction by the way the cash-settled contrast I don’t care about those because the Fed can always bail out an institution if it gets in trouble with cash-settled futures contracts and the like but the physical settled Bitcoin futures that’s different because Wall Street has to touch these physical bitcoins and we all know what’s happened how many hacks there have been in the custodial exchanges.
There is not 100% security in those custodial exchanges for the most part even even when there was a big run on coinbase a couple summers ago everybody survived it right and that tells you they’re not really playing three-card Monte behind the scenes we hope but we have no way even with those custodial exchanges to know whether they’re playing three-card Monte they don’t tell us what what their public key addresses are all right these are we’re talking about billion dollar tremendous companies that are gonna end up with these custodial accounts because everyone is so many people out there only are going to feel comfortable to own Bitcoin through these traditional financial mechanisms which is again you just said andreas gets blue in the face screaming you know control your private key right that’s only way you own it is right people don’t get that though they’re now they don’t get it and that was so anyway the these big corporations are gonna become Bitcoin banks okay yeah and these could what even though they are the richest corporations on the planet are they going to be able to have an unhackable account unhackable custodial organization or is one of them eventually gonna get it’s a honey pot I know you can tell where I’m going with this I think works I think one day it’s there’s good one think bitcoins gonna be worth $80,000 and one of these things is gonna get hacked and it’s quote it’s gonna be something like we never seen ugly absolutely and and the size I just was having this conversation yesterday with some important people in the industry the size of the Wall Street firms compared to the size of the crypto exchanges we’re talking about very different ZIP codes here because Wall Street is mad market and you know the crypto exchanges it’s the early adopters maybe some of the early majority that that are you know that have been involved I think in the you know in the in the big bubble that happened at the end of last year you know coinbase was opening something like a million new accounts a day right a lot of those faults probably don’t understand they don’t really own Bitcoin they own an IOU from coinbase right but but the magnitude of the Wall Street money that’s going to be coming in here is a different zip code because it’s institutional money and that’s that’s why this is it’s so important to get this right and to your point I am reasonably certain that one of these guys is gonna get hacked virtually every custodial exchange has already been hacked and I will also say the engineers who are in charge of those custodial exchanges they’ve been tried by fire the engineers of the big Wall Street firms I worked there for 22 years and very familiar with how they work and how their how their tech platforms work they have not been tried by fire and that this is not a skill set that Wall Street technology platforms have which is managing digital bearer instruments so I I if I were forced to keep my bitcoins on a Wall Street firm versus a custodial exchange like Gemini or cracking or bit trucks I’d rather choose one of the latter because they’ve been tried by fire for four years and the Wall Street firms have not and they’re going to be doing this in very large size and and the thing that really bugs me I’ll be very very clear about this taxpayer backed Wall Street firms should not be leveraging Bitcoin and it’s gonna happen and that’s what and it’s gonna burn them Wow pound that like button everyone we’re getting some real honest talk here and again I I want to I want to point out she you made a very interesting point there you’re comparing two different types of custodial accounts the ones they’ve been tried by fire the coin basis of the world and then the future ones that are gonna be controlled by these tremendous organizations and it all sounds scary but remember people you can avoid all that simply by getting your treasure or your ledger nano and controlling your own private key I mean it is you this all sounds scary what she’s saying but simple answer is control your private key and then you don’t have to worry about these shenanigans sure there’s gonna be a huge hack one day there’s going to have hurt the Fiat price of Bitcoin you all have to be comfortable with that fact that one day there is going to be a tremendous act like you’ve never seen before that’s gonna freak out the mainstream world but you just don’t have that you will still have the same amount of Bitcoin all right Andy Hoffman you got a lot to say about this you have you have been in a world with fake gold paper before what do you have to say Wow okay a lot of things here well first of all yes I spent 15 years being one of the most well known people in the world discussing the qualification of paper gold silver not to mention the manipulation of all the financial markets so I I watch this carefully in this question as to what will happen with Bitcoin with all of financialization is certainly something of interest to me starting with when the CM e futures and CBO a future started in December and I’ll talk of ETF etc and by the way I have never heard the term in all my years of all the of watching all the paper gold I never heard the term circulation credit so I got to add that to my repertoire so as far as a instable when I took money institutional ownership now now we’re talking about custody in general and the dangers of it and the funny thing is as as as much of a naysayer as I’ve been in general except seen the destruction that Wall Street has brought I just don’t see that kind of damage being done in Bitcoin I think a lot there’s a lot of fear out there because we’ve seen Wall Street do so much damage but they are not look but Wall Street didn’t create Bitcoin it didn’t make Bitcoin go to $20,000 and it’s not going to make it get widespread adoption it’s certainly especially during these bear market periods although I would argue the Bitcoin bear market bottoms in in February and we’ve just been consolidating altcoins another story you know during this period everyone’s looking for you know hot news topics that will get the price up all if an ETF is approved and yes FF the solid x ETF is approved on September 30th the price will go to all-time highs relatively quickly but I don’t think that’s gonna happen we’ll see what happens but as far as custodian in general the I agree with Kaitlyn completely Wall Street has no idea how this works I would bet most of all Street has not a clue what a public key versus a private key is until they do a little bit of research and even then they go well we can’t manage other people’s money with tracers so yes they’ll have to be solutions and yes it’ll have to come from mainstream players like owen sachs and all these guys and backed and i see and they’ll all do it in time now you know gbtc is an interesting case study because people forget that it’s been around for a long time it’s not a closed-end fun but it’s pretty close it’s a closed-end fund that can’t be increased in size and when we learned what we learned at the time that they did the B cash dividend a few months ago we learned that that gbtc is one of the largest Bitcoin holders in the whole world I forgot the number I was just trying to look it up it’s a big big amount so they’ve been Chris totally holding Bitcoin for an institutional investors for a long time now without any hacks and believe me I’ve been if not if when goldman sachs and all these guys get in and they’re all one you know every day a new Wall Street Bank comes in and the higher the price goes the more that will come in when they do it they will do it right I mean you know yes you could say it’s a honey pot but so is so is every Wall Street account now I mean you know hackers are more sophisticated they can hack in and steal your capital your your your cash account as easily as they could steal vitcon is my guest maybe less so I don’t know I mean yes you could have an inside job but you can also have an inside job with cash accounts with electronic holdings of bonds or stocks and probably an EMP will endanger you know an EMP will endanger a cash account just as much as a Bitcoin that’s that’s being held by a third party so I’m not so worried about it I do think that the custodian services are needed to get Wall Street in a big way I do believe that they’re gonna be there probably next year and I’m not so worried but particularly because like you say we you know the the the the small investors we hold it on traders that’s what we do so this is all will all be immune to this in time we’ll get to the question later on if you want about whether I think Wall Street can manipulate we talked about this before but that’s another topic okay okay farzam we’re talking about first world problems here did do you have I’m sure you’ve got some thoughts on it but you see this from a different perspective South Africa is is a first world country but at the same time it is a developing country also what is your take on everything that we’ve been say in here so yeah it’s I think it’s a very exciting time I think it’s important to put things into context which is we talk about cryptocurrencies and how it’s exploding etc and it has obviously but you know if we add up stocks bonds cash gold you look at the value of all of that which is about two hundred trillion US dollars we’re talking about a market that’s less than 02 percent of that those financial assets forget about real estate etc so we’ve got a long way to go for this to become a really systemic issue for the world and you know you talked about first world versus third world etc the thing I love about cryptocurrencies is that these assets don’t care who you are where you are where you’re from etc it’s beautiful and like it totally brings to zero a lot of these man-made assumptions we’ve made about ourselves an identity etc so I think we’ve got a long way to go I do think that they’re gonna be dangers that come about soon but I think that’s endemic in our financial system at the moment you know I think there are huge huge challenges right now just with straight out debt without any type of cryptocurrency coming along and I think we’re gonna see some huge ramifications all that over the next decade so that’s the one thing I’ll say the other thing I’ll say is that you know the crypto circles mean loud to talk about decentralization and how the world is gonna be decentralized etc very different perspective which is we came as humanity from a decentralized world we had bearer instruments people had their own gold coins silver coins etc and we realized that there are risks with having your own bearer assets and there’s security risks to that and so you know a couple of guys got together formed a little goldsmith etc and said listen we’ll take your gold from you will become a centralized institution and we’ll give you an IOU and people said hey some risks of a year but that sounds pretty good and so we moved from a decentralization to essentially a centralized system and now because of all the the lack of trust that many people have in these institutions people are trying to find a way to get more decentralized again now we couldn’t do that with digital instruments obviously because there was no way to prevent double spending in the past but now this whole idea of the prevention of double spending using this technology has brought about a whole new world that actually opens up possibilities that are glorious so you know last time we chatted Adam I was the blockchain D that the largest bank in Africa I’ve since left to start Valerie calm and the premise of that is that we’re moving towards a decentralized world but where there will be central intermediaries that people do trust I think is inconceivable that everybody will be holding their private keys in the future some people want to be able to reset their password they do not want to have the responsibility of safeguarding their own private keys so I think we’re for anybody that kind of says it this way or that way I think we need to have a little bit of humility to say we’re at the beginning of this huge Cambrian explosion of assets and business models etc where we end up we don’t know it’s a very exciting journey ahead well I’ve gotta agree where we end up who knows that is a great question at this point in time I’m good I’m gonna agree with you I think most people they want to have a Bitcoin back they do not want to control their own private key they would love there to be on the corner a Bitcoin bank and then they would gain the Bitcoin let someone else hold my Bitcoin I think I think those people right now far outnumber the people who are willing to take personal responsibility over their own over their own Bitcoin and I don’t I don’t know how it will change or if it will change there’s there’s a lot of opportunity for that you know people say the banks are gonna go out of business because a Bitcoin no I if it comes to a point where Bitcoin is huge they’ll just all become Bitcoin thanks I think and then at people will gladly just let someone else hold their their Bitcoin something that I want to quickly get to because again you’re in Africa and we’re talking about these I guess big picture type of issues financialization are people talking about this in South Africa the financialization aspect of Bitcoin or is it more a down-to-earth thing like how we’re gonna help the people or how are we going to avoid the uncomfortable aspects of Bitcoin you know busy you know in some of these countries we’ve had governments take away assets from people Bitcoin is something that you know cannot be taken away what is the purse is there a different perspective there in South Africa and in Africa beyond you’ve got a unique I mean we want to hear yeah you know I think there’s a little bit of difference in level of conversation obviously with the CBOE and the CME and the futures trading and in the US and also you know platforms in the East with that I have quite sophisticated platforms for trading and derivatives of the of different crypto type of assets we in South Africa aren’t talking too much about that I think the the discussion is mostly on is the retail market going to get access to buying crypto through the endorsement of institutional or institutions we talk a lot about institutional money but there’s a huge thing about institutional endorsement now it started slowly with the likes of Goldman etc and you know having been in a bank over here there is a lot of skepticism and there’s a lot of concern for reputational damage to get into this area and to so-called endorse it now I think we’re getting to a point relatively soon that that reputational risk is gonna shift right now it may have been a reputational risk not to touch this stuff but sooner will be a reputational risk not to be involved with it because as soon as you’re you know a financial institution and financial institutions we’ve had them for ages they’re not dollar based or fiat based institutions right these institutions deal with what humanity perky’s perceives to have monetary value so as the monetary instrument changes to your point earlier there will be certain institutions that are too addicted to their current cash flows they cannot pivot and they will go out of business but there’s no reason that the current incumbents cannot change their business models and take advantage of this new world so that’s one of the biggest things for me is this dichotomy between us and them I don’t think it’s that cut and clear I think you know there’s a there’s a kind of a morphing in between these worlds and I think the the the winners are still to be determined so in South Africa we are expecting towards the end of this year a regulatory or some regulatory guidelines as to how cryptocurrencies will be regulated right now for instance they’re not part of what’s called the financial markets Act here they’re not into securities they’re not deemed as currencies either the central bank has come out and said that so we’re still waiting for that but I think there’s a lot of progress with the regulators over the past six months the central bank has held two big conferences with probably about 400 and 700 people respectively to bring the community together to seek their guidance and their input as to what the regulatory framework should be so I think it’s really encouraging in South Africa and I think something to note is that the central bank the sarva South African Reserve Bank recently won the central banking award for the best distributed ledger initiative around the world and they actually put together an ethereal based platform where they were investigating the ability to settle rands on a blockchain using quorum and aetherium and so it’s a whole separate discussion as to you know fiat currency on a blockchain but I think it goes to say that even though we’re here in the south of Africa we were still we still like to think we have a right to be seen on the map all right and you know any any country any state can step up there’s no there’s no gatekeepers here in the land of Bitcoin if you want to be the Bitcoin capital of the world you can be Wyoming if you want and we’ll get to that in a second um and you could be the Bitcoin cap the world nothing nothing could hold you back um first of all we have put a lot on the table here in terms of topics do any of you have questions for I know so much that I didn’t want to cut anyone off do any of you have questions for the other one no no no questions I just think I’ll note that tomorrow marks the tenth anniversary of the Lehman bankruptcy this is a well time financially themed show absolutely indeed Caitlyn I have a question for you what what Farzin just kind of implied is that eventually you know the the institutions maybe right now they’re putting on the face that they’re it’s it’s something they don’t want to be involved in but eventually it’s something they will want to be involved in uh on the in illness in the scene on the wall street scene right now there’s still a lot of talk that it’s coming from there that it seems like if this is something that they’re not too comfortable with but behind the scenes are they 100% comfortable with Bitcoin and are they making plans to like totally I mean you’re rehypothecation and all that stuff totally financial eyes it well they’re never gonna be a hundred percent comfortable with it I thought I don’t think anybody who uses it is 100 percent comfortable with it right it’s to be honest because it is scary it’s a digital bearer instrument and you’re always worried that something’s gonna go wrong or that you’re gonna get hacked or you know kidnapped or something right that’s digital bearer instrument inherently have higher risks that you have to take responsibility for but but but yeah Wall Street is going to react pop the Kato the perfect example of this is Citigroup announced this week that it’s going to be creating depository receipts for Bitcoin okay a depository receipt is just a it’s just basically like a little trust accounts that’s gonna hold Bitcoin and it’s going to clear and settle through the Depository Trust Company we haven’t mentioned them yet but basically that’s where a lot of the sloppy accounting takes place in Wall Street that allows a lot of the accounting systems to get out of sync with one another and the big example of that is dole food case right right we’re one third more shares were created in Wall Street’s accounting system these were valid legal claims to dole food shares that didn’t exist and that happens through the DTC and so when I saw that Citigroup is doing this depository receipt with the DTC I just left because we’re trying to fit the square peg into the round hole and there are going to be accidents here the DTC is not set up to handle clearing and settlement for a digital bearer instrument and you know if anybody wants to set up one for one non non leveraged back non leveraged based financialization bitcoin Godspeed right that’s what all the crypto currency exchanges have done and you know it does appear that they’ve survived the run on the bank the big exception of course to date of wealth couple of amount GOx of course but okay Y X most recently did a bail in that you know that if you’re playing around with leverage with with cryptocurrencies there is no lender of last resort and so you really do need to be careful who you’re doing business with because there isn’t anybody to bail out those those crypto entities what’s different about Wall Street firms is that the clearing and settlement infrastructure is is fundamentally designed to lose track of who really owns what and that there’s fault-tolerance Patrick Byrne refers to at John Kenneth Galbraith phrase the bezel in Wall Street and it’s there and and it’s not it’s not necessarily purposeful it’s not necessarily nefarious it’s just inherent in the clearing and settlement infrastructure so now Wall Street’s coming and saying well we want to put Bitcoin into our clearing and settlement infrastructure to use Jameson lops phrase Wall Street needs Bitcoin more than Bitcoin needs Wall Street mmm indeed it’s it’s an I I love that line it it it’s set up to lose track of stuff I mean that’s that’s that’s disturbing and it’s like a trillion dollar it’s amazing it’s the mainstreaming it’s the mainstreaming of Ponzi schemes because it has to be more and more demand for something that we know that there’s an unlimited supply of legal that’s the yes I mean full tolerance is a good way of putting it meaning everyone it prefers ignorance over you know ignorance is bliss but again the same thing will happen with Bitcoin I I just I I agree with far ism I just don’t see a world a decentralized well yes the trend in general is people are angry at governments and financial institutions but they’ll always be big government’s a big financial institutions the differences with Bitcoin they won’t have as much control there will be in increasingly in increasing use of cryptocurrency which is outside of the system and competes with it so they won’t be able to dominate everything and as far as in malls and as far as I’m also says the debt issues in the legacy economy will have to be addressed I mean I was just looking you know the national debt was 10 trillion dollars the day at the Lehman bankruptcy today it’s 21 and a half plus the 5 trillion that they put on their off their balance sheet with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and it’s only gonna get worse now interest rates are going up we’re seeing record inflation readings everywhere and we’re seeing for fiat currencies around the world collapsing the South African Rand is a perfect example but it’s not exclusive it’s everywhere so all these issues yeah yeah yes yes and all these issues are going to be addressed at the same time that the demand for cryptocurrency around the world increases and then of course the wall street people who all they care about is profit you saw it when they came in January first but their crypto hedge funds just like I said they would and look what they did in just a few weeks I’m well they’re gonna do it you know permanently and well you know now that we have backed coming in and ETFs and futures they will you know this fall tolerance will will will move over to Bitcoin and will be a dramatic increase in institutional ownership it’s just a matter of time you know the price goes up and they buy and the price will go up whether they’re or not yeah I’m not sure I agree with that because one of the one of the big wall street folks with for whom I have tremendous respect put it this way that Wall Street needs to Excel bitcoins scarcity problem they look at that 20 minute 21 million cap and say that’s a problem we look at that and say that’s a future that’s a feature not a bug they look at it as a bug right and so by creating these on back that people think are real bitcoins and passing them off as if they are they are going to bring more supply that is why the price of Bitcoin dropped on the backed announcement I believe there wasn’t a lot of other news in those first couple of trading days and the price went down 20% on the backed news because markets this is the wisdom of crowds markets discount future activities when they’re announced into the price of anything on that day and what this is is a license for Wall Street to start creating unpacked claims to Bitcoin and in their words solve bitcoins scarcity problem I don’t think it’s a problem but they do well that that’s that’s a speculation if that’s gonna happen and again you know the price of Bitcoin a day doesn’t respond necessary there’s very few news of items that make Bitcoin move at all and whether there was a coincidence about that day I don’t know I’m not I’m not disputing I mean maybe people do believe that but there’s so many reasons why bitcoin is different from other assets such as gold that we’re gonna that are going to develop in time so I’m not disagreeing or agreeing I’m just saying it’s something to be watched but you know the thought that oh oh this is just like oh they’ll just do the same thing I mean I strongly disagree with that’s that’s another story yeah no no I where I was disagreeing with you is that that they are going to be creating they are going to be artificially increasing the supply that is their business model they are going to be creating unpacked claims to Bitcoin through all these various insidious mechanisms like rehypothecation like margin loans at less than a hundred percent like collateral substitution rights in clearing houses where you can’t you don’t have to post actual Bitcoin you can post Treasuries of cash on your exposures there are ways lots of different ways that that that unpacked claims to Bitcoin are going to start leaking into the system and their inherent in the clearing and settlement infrastructure of Wall Street but the beauty of it is you know this is like your show like with my Krieger and Blake that you know the delivery process for a let’s say gold is essentially impossible I mean central banks can’t even get their gold and they don’t even really want their gold even if they could get it in the case of Bitcoin the Bitcoin community if they sense this big whales I can just take the Bitcoin yeah I mean you can’t stop them that’s like my I want my ten million dollars worth of Bitcoin now and that’s it so you know again it’s a developing thing it’s just a matter of we sort of us have been watching Wall Street do this for so long and again on the anniversary of Lehman this is why Bitcoin was created on the 10th anniversary of Lehman basically the white paper came out October 31st of 2008 as a response so in time I’m confident in time not saying tomorrow that the Wall Street mechanisms for solving the scarcity problem will be defeated but we will see what happens in the near term because they are going to try as Caitlin said yeah oh sorry go ahead one just quick addition one of the things that would keep Wall Street honest that would make me say yes you’re doing this right is if they actually offered clients as you as you said a right to settle in physical and you’ve talked about it we could just withdraw our bitcoins a problem is with the ETFs and with the futures contracts there is no right to settle in physical what they when you sell they’re gonna pay you cash so if they actually did give you the right to settle in physical which I completely agree they should and would be easy to do then it would keep them honest and I’d be a lot more comfortable ok well that that’s kind of like the GLD and the SLV in the sov you could theoretically get it except you’d have to get thousand mountain silver bars that no one wants and yes they can i Papa gate so yes they are gonna have all their built-in bells and whistles to favor their system we’ll just have to see if their system can beat the ultimate financial creation by the 99% yeah far down your bow just a small thing just to add on which is you know I think the thing that many people forget is that all monetary value is relative great so you cannot express a value of something in monetary terms with that relying on referring to something else and by default we do it in the currency of our country so it’s dollars it’s that right my god I love I always do a little thing when I talk to people I take my phone I ask an audience how much is this worth and invariably if I’m speaking in South Africa the people in that room have a and figure in their mind I’m speaking in the US as a dollar figure and Japan is a yen etc so we’re so socialized to think in terms of the fiat currency that we’re used to that we forget that things change that money changes and money involves we forget to the Fed you know so let me put it this way the bank that I used to work for and many banks are much much older than the Federal Reserve the United States the Fed is a hundred and five years old that’s not a long time the dollar as we know it today is about 40 47 years old that’s a really really short lifespan half a human lifespan so I think a lot of people talk about the the experimentation or the you know that the jury is still out on Bitcoin I think the jury’s still out on the dollar and I think we’re going to see in in in you know I think in my lifetime there is a very good possibility that the dollar does not exist I agree this discussion or this discussion about what is the you know Bitcoin worth and is it going to go up and down and and and and one last you know anecdote that I like to give is you know Jim Bob were talking about Africa was one of the most stable countries in Africa it was the pride of Africa two three decades ago I remember friends of mine I used to live in Nairobi going to Herrara coming back saying wow that is such an amazing place so you would never have said you know that in two three decades from then that we will be dealing with an economy as it is today and when you think about the price of a Bitcoin in terms of the Zimbabwean dollar sometimes people like no this is involved in dollar doesn’t exist well yeah it doesn’t but there’s still an exchange rate the exchange rate is infinite and you know it to be ever the dollar does die and Bitcoin outlives the dollar by definition the price of a Bitcoin in terms of dollars is going to be infinite right and the thing is that all of us secular Americans at least Kaitlyn and I and Adam we all think in terms that the whole world uses dollars when in fact only eight percent of the world lives in America and yes more of the world uses dollars than 8% but most of people don’t and so when people in America read the top read stories about emerging market currency crisis they don’t realize that this is the vast majority of the world they don’t realize that in India where ability to have people live the Indian rupee just hit an all-time low last week this is a year and a half after a Modi creatives cashless society or that the Chinese you want as much as it’s it’s being managed is very close to breaking the 25 year low of seven to the dollar which these trade wars will inevitably push it to and then of course all the other countries in the world I mean I remember when I went to South Africa ten years ago was six to the dollar now it’s 15 to the dollar and there are far worse places in Africa and far worse places on other part of other parts world so when we say will the dollar be the same as it is today in our lifetimes maybe it will maybe won’t it certainly will have less purchasing power but many the other currencies the world won’t exist at all in our lifetimes and that is guaranteed yeah one other thing too to add which is when we think about institutional money and we think about all these currencies that and you just talked about and that the world is shifting you know this idea of unconventional monetary policy is a term that’s just come about in the last decade yeah and we don’t realize that what that means is that conventional monetary policy stopped working otherwise we wouldn’t be using unconventional monetary policy so the fact that we’re here that we’re by some accounts over the last few years have had interest rates that have not been lower than this over the past 5,000 years where we have the Fed’s balance sheet of 4.
5 trillion us dollars we do not know what an unwinding of that looks like I think it’s actually getting to the point that and maybe even irresponsible for a lot of the institution not to have a little bit of a hedge in this new asset class there might be a hedge to the let me not say shenanigans but some of the instability that’s inherent in our current financial system.
I would agree that the challenge though of course is that the institutions like pension and mutual funds will naturally want to buy a Wall Street version of Bitcoin because it’s because they want to fit it into their clearing and settlement infrastructure right they don’t want to have to deal with holding their private keys the huge pension funds like the CalPERS of the world.
Absolutely could they have a capability to do it the big hedge funds are doing exactly that, but most institutional money is going to buy The Wall Street version of the product and to quote Jim grant from his wonderful essay that was printed on the 10th anniversary of the financial crisis talking about ETFs.
Being the tail that wags the dog proverbially he said look no one knows what’s gonna happen when there’s a rush for the door in an ETF and if indeed we have these unpacked claims that I strongly suspect are have crept into ETFs all over the place just because.
I know how Wall Street’s accounting system works and you don’t know this until you have a reckoning event you couldn’t have told how big that bezel was in the dole food situation until there was a merger I experienced it in my pension business at Morgan Stanley until we actually tried to transfer all of the bond portfolio from the pension fund over to the insurance company that was providing annuities to the pensioners and we were freezing things in place so the musical chairs stopped we did not know that there was unauthorized securities lending happening in that account that it was not discoverable until you have that reckoning event and what Jim Greg is talking about is these reckoning events are going to be ugly and and you’re gonna see a big collapse in the price and the tracking error is on those ETFs is gonna be massive I think he’s right but I but none of us can prove it because with only a few limited exceptions we really haven’t tested the ETF market yet yeah and I’ll certainly bring up my area of expertise the GLD in the SLV which came out China over what years it was now the latest yeah yeah late 2000 2008 and yeah yes to this day they have not been audited it’s no different than the Fort Knox gold all things literally there’s no requirement in the in the disclosures for them to ever be on they can also subcontract custodianship of the gold and silver to other entities not report who those entities are but they don’t have to be audited and of course you’re they’re allowed to re you know lend out those quote gold holdings and they have and we just don’t know how much so yeah to that end this is what they do and I’m sure if there’s a Bitcoin etx ETF whether it’s a solid x1 or another one it’ll have those salt same very loose loose loose wordings that allow the custodians to do whatever they want and curious to see who the custodians are because in gold and silver you have two of the biggest criminal banks in the world they just be single and JPMorgan and silver but again there’s just too many there’s too many things going for Bitcoin that were not going for for gold and silver for instance which was their primary competition before the digital age started for one of course governments don’t own any Bitcoin they can’t pretend they can’t they can’t be like the US government saying we have 8,000 135 tons because we know that they don’t have any we know that pretty much no government has any and they also governments don’t have the same goals when it comes to fiat currency they all had the goal of keeping gold down in supporting fiat currency inflation but they don’t all have the goal of keeping Bitcoin down and I don’t think most of them even understand how it works and then of course is the delivery issue and the blockchain transparency all of these things are going to be fighting a titanic war in the early stages of the wall street financialization a Bitcoin yeah I look at the Vanek solid X filing with the SEC for the ETF and you’ll be interested to know I have two beeps with it the big ones are that the that they say nothing about custody there’s literally one sentence in there that says the trust has no sense exactly they say nothing about whether they’re gonna be lending it out there’s just nothing disclosed about custody and the other beef I have with all of these Wall Street products is they’re not making any commitments on Forks or airdrops yeah hmm so you know what are you really buying I I was joking with a regulator who speaking with recently that I’m an attorney but I but I’m non-practicing might reactivate my bar membership and start suing fiduciaries for buying some of this stuff because there’s no promise in that it’s being made to the investors where is the investor protection in this stuff when there’s no compromise okay then question for you though so what type of kind of commitment would you expect because I think that’s a very difficult thing to to expect from an institution regarding the fork so what would you have well it is interesting I would I must say gbtc is the best one of the ones i looked at including the the synthetic ones the CBOE and cime futures which are cash settled I was merged in the physical settles because they have to actually deal with it as opposed to just try to track it synthetically but but gbtc is the best one it actually is the most specific I think they if I recall right they actually are doing they said something about whatever’s the longest chain within 48 hours but but one of the big but not all the other ones including benaki centrally just says the veneks holodecks application says that our risk and management committee will consider the appropriate course of action so basically there’s not you have no enforceable legally enforceable promise sorry go ahead yeah well of course that’s not an issue anymore it was an issue at the time that jeebies TC was dealing with the be cash fork as to what they would recognize fortunately bitcoin is one the scaling debates so the issue will not be whether or not bitcoin will still be bitcoin after for the issue is how they will handle the dividends and you know exactly that’s indicate and again fortunately because the bitcoin Forks have kind of fizzled out there is really that’s not an issue anymore because like the diamond and all the super bitcoin aren’t worried but heirs right we don’t in the air drops I got might be rhodium clock behind me it’s about to launch later this month there will be air drops that are going to be worth a lot and they’re gonna have to decide if they’re going to get those and give out the dividend and yes you VDC did actually give out a B cash dividend when it was worth something good for them but my bigger question I’ll ask to you because you read all the filings so with all this talk about custodianship and ETFs and the sec they may approve the holodecks it’s backed by the CBO and everything how could they possibly approve a Bitcoin ETF that doesn’t even suggest anything about custodianship in the filings isn’t that a good question but you point out exactly the same thing is true in these other ETFs for other scarce assets like gold and silver is ec’s job is investor protection and the you know Sun sunlight is is the is the best cleanser and they don’t require disclosures on on some of these things and and again the thing that’s so amazing about blockchain is we’ve got the actual public chain why not use that technology in forcing disclosures of public keys so you have a verifiable net asset value or you can verify that this you know your your your your financial institution is indeed not playing three-card Monte with your own coins behind that behind the scenes and again I want to underscore I’m not against banks I’m not against and I completely agree with your statement earlier that this they are always going to exist it’s the playing of the three-card Monte with the client assets that’s the idea yeah all right let’s uh we were bringing up the word the van eck Kaitlyn is it so is it gonna get approved and or you think they’re gonna wait till the last minute I think the last possible minute for it to get approved is like in February of 2019 are they gonna keep putting it off what do you what do you think I don’t have any better insight than anybody else okay okay no no special well here here’s a question that Andy actually brought up at the very start of the show with all this three-card Monte stuff that’s going on long term long term can these Wall Street organizations manipulate the price of Bitcoin long term not not short term long right right well I I gave my opinion in the last answer that there’s just not enough reserves out there or governments that have the same goals and of course that there’s there’s so much more transparency in the blockchain and in the delivery process so I think a lot of the government’s are going to be fighting each other in the ultimate game theory see who gets the most Bitcoin not who can suppress it the most I don’t think there’s going to be any ability to do that the real to me the real manipulation in this case is solely going to be what Caitlyn’s talking about Wall Street as opposed to in gold and silver where it’s Wall Street aiding and abetting the the central banks of the world who were trying to support beyond currency alright Caitlin your thoughts long-term can they manipulate the price no long term nobody can mitigate Bitcoin they definitely can short term I think they already have but but no bitcoins gonna win it’s too decentralized they can’t control it they and anybody who really tries to play three-card Monte to trace this point the community will just fork them and and and reveal the magnitude of the insolvency of the financial institution this gets back to my earlier very strong statement any taxpayer backed a Federal Reserve back financial institutions should not be leveraging cryptocurrencies and people people also need to remember I know everyone thinks that the Bitcoin market is so liquid because you know you put on like BitFenix and you’ll see a lot moving or trading but the fact is first of all most of most I would say 95% of it for Nexus poofs almost everything is fake and especially at least it got it got reasonably liquid during the top in like the summer in January but right now yes it’s much more liquid than it was two years ago but it is an extremely illiquid asset that can be moved around especially now that you have futures and and a handful of big sophisticated whales and Wall Street doing their thing but as it becomes bigger there will be letting far more liquidity and these games will be far more difficult to to perpetrate and yeah I’m interested when you say 95% is spoofs I’m sure you’re talking about wash Trading and the like do you have any evidence for things like that or is it just a hunch or one I can’t I’m not specifically saying wash trading because I mean that there’s no way of proving that but you know for someone who’s who’s watched tick for tick not this big coin but gold and all kinds of other things it’s pretty obvious and it’s funny I was just noting that the last 2 or 3 days when the price started moving up all the sudden the spoofs disappeared but I’m talking about for pretty much is it bear market year going back to February March if you just watch BitFenix for any given period of time you’ll be like wow almost everything here is fake every move up is met by big bids that go away every move down by big offers there’s far more of the offers I would say for every fake bid this 10 fake offers I mean it’s really embarrassing to watch it’s worse than watching the GLD or the comics but it is a fact of life in a thin market these big players move the price around with fake bids norms in fact if you look at my tweets like I mean I tweeted so much about this I’ve put one in a few days ago I said watch on bid for next the five biggest fake spoof offers are for 32 29 17 11 and 5 and then after that I’m watching it sure enough those numbers just keep popping up over and over again so yes it’s a very illiquid market right now but much more liquid than it was two years ago I want to ask Caitlin you you talked about the wall street it’s not a feature for them that they’re only going to be 21 million Bitcoin they’re going to try to create ways to make it look like they’re more Bitcoin how about this is an option though and what how about all coins with them have you heard talk about them wanting to get into alt coins are they interested in aetherium because there you go there you got more cryptocurrency to play with there you’re not limited to just 21 million which are you a Bitcoin maximalist what’s your take on Wall Street all coins and your thoughts on all points well yeah they’re definitely interested in aetherium so that’s coming too right behind Bitcoin may be I don’t know six months behind Bitcoin in terms of Wall Street creating you know if they’re in based packages and I think over time their goal is to trade anything that’s liquid and do what they do if anything that’s liquid so they they’re you know they’re they’re not going to get involved in all these fights between the that the tribes if you will but in this in this industry because they just want to do what they do they’re they’re all about capturing bid-offer spread and and inflating the supply of assets so that they can trade even more and capture more big op bid-offer spread their you know and then they take their money and run this is not they’re not gonna get tribal about this whatever’s liquid is what it is whatever they’re gonna want to trade yeah but it might have Bitcoin maximalist yes I am I think it’s gonna take 20 years for that to play out and I do think that there is real room for other blockchains I think aetherium has amazing applications for tokenizing things well Bitcoin be the better use for that over time maybe but right now if there is got lead in in tokenizing assets and then and there is real value to that about because I do believe that the cruft that happens on Wall Street can be fixed by blockchain and at this point it’s wide open in terms of fixing the cruft on Wall Street with blockchain clearly Bitcoin has a big lead on money itself and and really etherium is not really going after Bitcoin in terms of monetary use alright farzam you mentioned aetherium beforehand in South Africa is it a is the Bitcoin maximalist homeland or is is there a lot of talk about these other do people want to diversify there I mean as you can see on Twitter in the Western world there are some passionate Bitcoin maximalist it is it the same in South Africa what’s your domain we get the passionate fights and disagreements and debates over here for sure but there’s a lot of talk about alts and I’m on a whatsapp group called alt Ghana Stan so there’s a lot of information and kind of different views and I really agree with Caitlin I think I still think it’s early days and I think right now there’s been a you know this kind of law in any Forks etc but you know I still think it’s important to note that we haven’t sold skating you know and a nice stat I’d like to give is that when we think about Bitcoin and you think about Venezuela and if we said listen let everybody in the world just give all the capacity on the Bitcoin blockchain network to Venezuelans then effectively each Venezuelan would only be able to submit one financial transaction every about two months that’s simply not doable right so we’re getting there the second layer lightning etc but I still think we have to have little humility things change quickly so I personally am a crypto let’s say I’m agnostic crippled agnostic I don’t know what will win out but I’m super excited about this ecosystem because I think just the cryptic I think is huge and I think those are the conversations that we’re having here and so that could be like everywhere else in the world by the way for farzam Lorien Gamera said hi he wanted me to say hi to you speaking of guys you know Andy I’m very familiar with your your feelings your thoughts about all coins and everything do you have anything to add to what was just said right but but but Wall Street plus all coins is the question yeah and of course we’ll look first of all we know I mean don’t I mean like what Kaelyn says I mean the answers is the sky blue there’s a bear crap in the woods well Wall Street embrace all coins you’re kidding me this is the greatest invention in the history of Wall Street because they’re so illiquid in Solvang a huge bid-ask spreads and there’s so many suckers that get involved in these things 80 percenters that’s how they feast it’s the greatest invention ever and altcoins will be a Wall Street playground forever and you know as far as um where were we talking about oh yeah we have goldman sachs you know they blood baloney acts through their circle venture capital that i think they own about 30 or 40 percent of that that’s the first warning shot but they will all be in because if everyone remembers just less than a year ago how liquid those old coins got when people are into them and i’m not just talking about aetherium which went to a hundred thirty-five billion dollar market cap for absolutely doing pretty much nothing but a lot of these smaller ones became very liquid too and so they will do it they will create they will create ETFs for aetherium they’ll create basket ETFs that have all different all coins in them just like we have baskets of pretty much every sector and and you know again of course I’m a Bitcoin maximalist but only in terms of its monetary impact on the world you know the tribes there are no tribes anymore I mean in fact if you saw I just saw the headline it said watch Jimmy song and Raj of arrogant to a 5/32 and you and you and you look at this and you was there you believe there was ever actually a war between Bitcoin and and these idiots because there’s no more tribes bitcoin is the king of money and will be as far as cryptocurrency as long as exist but both coins are going to be a huge part of the environment for years to come and Wall Street is going to capitalize in a big big way all right I want to thank everybody in this super chat by the way Jim my buddy up in Pennsylvania and pension sent some contributions thank you guys thank you very much for that there is a question that is gonna kind of refer back to what was talking we were talking about before but it’s a it’s a it’s a deep question this is for Caitlin I would love to hear your thoughts about privacy upgrades on the big coin main chain potentially making rehypothecation possible so we’re talking about it would be great it would be great to have privacy upgrades on Bitcoin but there’s a darker side to it there yeah Thank You Reid office Kate yeah so what are your thoughts on that that’s crazy it’s a great question I thought where they were going was a point that under is made earlier which is that the problem with Wall Street is because of the Bank Secrecy Act that Wall Street whales are going to be influencing the technology upgrades and specifically privacy upgrades and he was making the point that the Wall Street where whales would try to block privacy upgrades to the Bitcoin core software and because their compliance departments won’t let them trade in any of the privacy coins how would how would they how would they be able to his point is since they can’t in other words if the community Forks young upgrades upgrades Bitcoin core to include privacy all of the in all of its versions and Wall Street can’t follow that because they can’t comply with the Bank Secrecy Act his point is Wall Street’s gonna fork into what he calls corpo coin and that may very well be what happens if if a privacy upgrade takes place and Wall Street can’t follow it for compliance reasons but that your question are asked to different question which which is wouldn’t Wall Street want to benefit from that because they could play even more games if they do and the answer is yes but I think the bigger obstacle is Wall Street it’s not going to be able to because of the Bank Secrecy Act they have to know their customers that have to comply with anti money laundering laws and they also now have to own the bet know who the beneficial owner of the assets is Trump has gone you know in the very wrong direction on financial regulation he’s making it worse not better all the deregulation talk he’s had in other industries it’s been he’s done some good things but in finance he’s gone backwards we’re getting it’s getting worse in the Bank Secrecy compliant Bank Secrecy Act compliance in financial services so Wall Street can’t deal in privacy cloyd’s yeah I just wanna add I just think it’s funny talking about the concept of Wall Street whales you know it’s with quotes around it will try to block privacy on Bitcoin which is for one you know the term Wall Street whales who is that exactly and of course what exactly is privacy on Bitcoin but more importantly mean it was just a year ago when the most powerful miner in the world probably aided by the most powerful government in the world and the most powerful Bitcoin investor in the world threatened to fork and break Bitcoin in two and a month later they were destroyed and they had everyone on board they got all the Sigma 2x everyone possible and within a month’s time they were humiliated and defeated and now Batman is gonna go bankrupt and Roger bear has become persona non grata so to think that anyone could stop anything in Bitcoin let alone some kind of small protocol change which is gonna happen anyway it’s not like it’s gonna be hard for it’s just gonna happen naturally yeah they’ll be sitting you know they’ll think it’ll happen off chain all kinds of stuff the AML kyc again it’s laughable it sounds like a big story now because they’re trying to create ETFs and Goldman’s like whoa we got to create a policy if we’re gonna have crypto but in a few years time everything about cryptocurrency will be so anonymous and decentralized that there’s nothing they can do and that the same thing goes like the SEC just admitted that aetherium is is basically decentralized we can’t call it a a currency or security because the fact is even ones like etherium that have an ethereal foundation become decentralized we talked about steam on my thing last week’s team is already decentralized to the point where Dan Laramie really isn’t even a part of it anymore and it’s gonna happen a court with all these new technological innovations to the point that you know AML kyc is gonna become the biggest joke in cryptocurrency well you know I I welcome them here and let me know one more thing again the more money you know the way they talk about these decentralized exchanges and one says oh it can’t happen because if you need more fear but it’s cryptocurrency becomes more valuable more and more of the worth of the world is going to train on decentralized exchanges so then what trades on Wall Street is going to be the minority of all the crypto that’s trading in the world the won’t even matter just one can I decide once increase please so I think that brings up some good points I think in the short to medium term though I think oh I see and I was gonna be a big thing because we’re talking about the on-ramps between crypto current guess yes you’re a migrant yes right so so that’s gonna be that but I think very few people kind of look forward to seeing okay what is the implication on this for tax collectors for the revenue services etc and I think as more people more and more people start losing trust in their governments this is a more people who start using trust in their financial institutions which they are and you have a medium of exchange that allows for all the privacy that we’ve talked about without relying on a trusted financial institution we’re in a whole new world where our current regulations our current paradigms just do not apply and at the end of the day money is a network effect so even if a government says you cannot use it but the people want to use it and because of its scarcity it still maintains some value it’s very very difficult to shut down and I think very few people especially in the establishment right now recognize that or if they do recognize it what do I actually acknowledge it publicly I want to say Kaitlyn brought up corporate coin that you know if privacy becomes an issue that they some of these big organizations they’ll just form their own Bitcoin yeah they’re welcome to fork off I you know if they want to give me free corporate coin hey cuz I know a lot of people will buy into it they’ll get really excited o Goldman Sachs is gonna have their own Bitcoin so many people will buy it I mean it’s complete nonsense in my head and in most of the people’s heads is watching this but hey yeah dubby I mean that’s a very interesting I mean we don’t know what the future is gonna bring but there might be corporate bitcoins these huge finance Wall Street corporate coins this is my unlearning stuff and you know what and again I don’t support that stuff if they want to give it to me for free heck give it to me for free operated for up trade it for the real thing because nothing sir I’m not just banks I mean you know we talked about Amazon Facebook Starbucks everyone will have a coin because because they’ll they’ll be like the tokens you know the Oct 22 and this year if people think there’s money to be made off it everyone will make one and of course is everyone starts making one in crypto becomes a bigger part of the global economy everyone will feel that they have to and again it will it will by de facto make things more decentralized and cut out tax collectors and politicians it’s just a trend over time that can’t be stopped yeah I think I just I just fascinated by the fact that the privacy addition is gonna force them into a corner possibly yes this well it will because they cannot adopt a private cryptocurrency they can’t they couldn’t be doing this with Manero for example or Z cash yeah and we the funny there we can see the beginnings of that that truth that basic truth because coin base which is not a big financial organization they won’t list Manero yeah no but that was exactly under aces point like you know the coin basis of the world actually had a big impact on the debate last August they didn’t influence it and again back to my earlier point I wanna clarify I don’t think Wall Street’s ever going to be able to control the debate but are they gonna have a big influence because they’re whales and again we think coin basis of we’ll wait till you see core Wall Street market infrastructure coming in those the coin base is not going to be a whale compared to that you know just by coinbase for pennies on the dollar would be like them buying Polonia x to laugh at it yeah it’s a B what we’ve seen so far in the crypto space is really small compared to what’s gonna be happening now that core Wall Street infrastructure is coming into this space it’s gonna it’s gonna have a big impact but will it control no but will it have an influence just like coinbase did relatively last year of course it because these are gonna be big whales pound that like button everyone this show has been freaking on fire I’m pumped but we got I told everybody just an hour so we’re already there so I want to get to the conclusion airy remarks and I mean there’s still some questions out the all these guests will return of course and again we do this this week in Bitcoin is every Friday you get to hear the best guests in the space I bring on this show I work very hard to do that farzam I want it was anything left out is there anything you want to add is there any any topics and also you got a mention what your emceeing the event next year at the 2019 blockchain event in in johannesburg but take it away the floor is yours yeah there is a big event March called the blockchain Africa conference which shall be emceeing we should have hundreds of participants it’s always being a great conference I think it will be the fourth year that it’s running right now so it’s a thanks the fifth year yes I was at the first yeah I’ve been at to 2015 and eight things in it yeah I think the last thing I’ll probably say is it’s a social comment which is that the world is starting to recognize more and more its own unity humanity is one and even though we might have some hiccups along the way like Greg’s it and politicians that are really gunning for their own geographic space if you step back and you look at our money and let’s just take it for the American audience and for the Americans on the panel you know I think we’re really really grateful that we don’t have a Brooklyn coin and a Manhattan coin that when you go from Manhattan to Brooklyn you need to stop and pay somebody a few bucks to change it and then actually go to the restaurant in Brooklyn thank God we don’t have that we’ve just got the dollar they don’t even have a New York coin and a California coins thank God but the fact of the matter is we do have a us coin we have a China corn you have a Japanese core in a South African corn etc so even though we’ve seen this flourishing of assets of crypto assets and tokens I think because money and when I’m talking about specifically the utility nature of money in the currency nature all of these coins that we’re talking about because it’s a social network I think we will be converging on to one two three I don’t know but a few we’re not gonna be I don’t think we’re gonna have a huge explosion you might have them but I mean the point is it’s it becomes infeasible for people to start calculating what is this Starbucks coin in the JP Morgan coin etc humans need a kind of consensus of how they actually look at value and I think we’re moving slowly in that direction I don’t know exactly what it will be but I am extremely excited and tremendously privileged to be in this community great conclusion there I agree with that all right Kaitlyn moving on well welcome to the show again on your first occurrence is already legendary in my head there anything you want to add and there’s I do have a specific question you got to talk about Wyoming and you got to talk to Tyler you’re home well that’s what yeah yeah there’s something epic happening in Wyoming on Monday the 24th of September we’re having a legislative task force meeting and both Jimmy song and Tyler Lynn home with their gigantic cowboy hats are gonna be there so we actually get the two of them in the space at the same time that’s that I can’t wait we’re not done it with creating favorable legislation in Wyoming and I have a request for your listeners if you are a crypto company that has trouble has had trouble in the past getting or keeping a regular business bank account because the banks are closing you out send me a message on Kaitlyn – Shalom calm or on Twitter or on LinkedIn we need examples for that legislative session these are going to be mostly American companies but anyone from outside the US is welcome to send me a letter as well we just need to be able to put that in the record because we are going to be proposing what is effectively a money warehouse bank for the crypto industry to help make sure that crypt legitimate crypto businesses that can comply with know your customer and anti money laundering all that stuff are not going to end up losing a bank account so shoot me a message if that’s happened to you and you’re willing to go on the record because we’re gonna try to fix that in Wyoming we’re not done all right so uh conclusionary remarks from the show today anything that was left out you wanted to add about financialization to calm people again don’t fear people don’t fear we’re this is just the beginning big players are coming and they’re gonna play some tricks what do you have to say any conclusionary thoughts hey I would just add traces point which is if law Street is gonna come in and suppress the price with all these these games of fixing the supply problem quote-unquote that just means that it’s cheaper for the rest of us to buy it and and what I mean by it I mean buy it and keep your private keys because I completely agree with everything long-term this is gonna be you know Wall Street can’t really mess with this this is what the bitcoins gonna win but that doesn’t mean in the short term that they can’t create buying opportunities for those of us who are not afraid to take our own personal responsibility for our own wealth excellent per source I love it personal responsibility is the new counterculture people remember that Andy Hoffman tie it all up here man that was left off what do you got to add okay well first of all you remember yet Brian Kelly on your show back in October talking left the wall of institutional money headed for Christo remember of course that I wrote an article two weeks before that saying that it was coming the second that Bitcoin hit $6,000 which was a 100 billion dollar market cap that’s when the whole rally started and of course the Hoffman line the hundred billion now market cap is now held for the entire year that means the institutions have started to come in they are never going away and so when we talk about will Wall Street try to suppress it and yes there’s been a lot of talk in this call about the things that Wall Street has done to suppress assets Wall Street also props assets up they’re the ones who created the bubble in January that that put a theory about 135 billion dollar market cap and cryptocurrency which is the beginning of you know of a new is in a bull market as opposed to gold which is at the end of a 5,000 year old Stone Age so Bitcoin Wall Street’s main goal is to make money on bet on bull markets and this is a decidedly bull market that’s just starting so for all the talk about what they will do to suppress it this is gonna be far more that’s done to make it go higher and there’s gonna be a lot of money that’s going to be coming in to crypto and we’re about to hit the 10-year anniversary of the of the Bitcoin blockchain we’re also going to hit you anyway first again and there’s gonna be a lot more crypto hedge funds now that so many have done their research this year and oh yeah if there happens to be an ETF Katie bar the door we will be at twenty thousand dollars before you can blink your eye and I just wanted to clarify two things Adam because over the years you’ve said the word conclusionary at every one of your calls and I looked it up because I wasn’t sure if that is a word it is in fact the word Adam so yes you can say conclusionary remarks at the end of every show but one other word that you do get really wrong it’s not hypothec asian it’s high publication guys on here – you know correctly Denton’s – translates as the Baltimore accent is oh alright so anyway it has been a blast today I’m sure everyone’s excited about getting their corporate coin in 2021 from sex and everything but I mean that was a I love that point about privacy is gonna push them into a corner Wow I can make I want to make ten different shows about that and on that note I post a new show here every single day so remember people subscribe to the channel and every Friday we have this week in Bitcoin on even when I’m in Santiago Chile next Friday we will I will get a show together somehow beyond Bitcoin show is on Saturday pound that like button everybody this one really deserves a big pounding because it was a great show thank you everyone have a great weekend i’m adam meister the bitcoinmeister the disrupt meister remember to subscribe this channel like this video share this video check out the notes section below for everybody’s contact information thank you again guests everyone bye bye